Financial Wellness Today: Reverse Mortgages Decoded with Guest Millie Potter

I’ve seen the ups and downs of interest rates, the ups and downs of the markets. And as I got older myself, I looked at doing reverse mortgages to help people in my age group have a better outcome as they got older and retired to make sure they could stay where they wanted to be or buy something better that suited their position. So for our listeners, you’ve been in this business 37 years? Correct. Oh, man, that’s awesome.

I knew it was a long time. I didn’t know it was 37 years. But with that, you bring a wealth of experience. You’ve seen the changes throughout the mortgage industry. And again, this is a very important segment because when people are 62 and older, they’re at a position in life where if they make any mistakes, obviously it’s, you’re not too young to go ahead and make up for those mistakes in many cases, right?

So it’s important when you make decisions that you understand what you’re doing, especially when it comes to financials, especially when it comes to having shelter and a roof over your head. Of course. And that’s what it’s all about, making sure they can live where they want to live and afford it for as long as they can live. So one of the pieces of the show are preventing people from making mistakes. Correct.

And I saw today, I just always try to look at some articles. There was an article about reverse mortgage scams. So I’m sure we can talk a little bit about those. And again, at that age, having a roof over your head, protecting yourself because the economy’s gone bad for the last four or five years where everything’s cost more. A lot of times when you’re at that age, you’re either facing retirement or you’re on a fixed income already.

So we’ll talk, we’re going to go through a little bit of a case study to kind of just give people the understanding of the process and the different situations that might be a person that would consider a reverse mortgage. But talk about the pitfalls for consumers on the scamming side. There’s so many things out there with technology that people have to guard themselves from, but this one obviously is something that we have to just highlight so that people understand that they exist. That’s why we have trusted professionals like you on the show. Right.

So I guess the biggest thing that I see in the outside world are lenders who might say, oh, you can withdraw $150,000 right at closing and sell that as a real benefit, but they’re not digging deeper and looking at the bottom line in the end and whether the person has the discipline to not waste that money or their heirs won’t come in and take some of it. And the other thing is that amount is what boosts the loan officer’s commission. And that’s what is sat. Because sometimes all they need is maybe $25,000, $50,000 to fix something, pay off some bills, and that’s fine. Big difference in income structure for the loan officer if that amount is over $100,000.

I can’t say enough why this show is so important to me and to people like you that I’m bringing on because of just what you said. I’ll give you an example too in the solar industry. This is another piece where people could basically, if the consumer didn’t understand what was really going on, they could set the kilowatt hours as high as they could to get commission and still save people money, but they could have saved a lot more if commission wasn’t involved. And I’m not here to disparage commission because there are tremendous sales professionals that exist, but there are also some people that don’t necessarily operate with the consumer’s best interest in mind. So as a protective measure, again, grateful to have you on the show so we can talk through these things and just give people something to think about.

And I know when we do the counseling, sometimes the family is involved also because they want to understand what’s happening because maybe they’re involved, maybe one of them’s a power of attorney already. There’s decisions that may have to be made by more than the individual. And we encourage that. We want the family involved so they understand not only what’s happening now, but what they need to do later on. That’s huge.

And that’s all about planning, right? It’s all about being a steward. And I’m kind of in that position right now. My dad’s 84, so we’ve been going through this for a little while. So I understand the importance of it on educating people on all of these things.

So let’s talk about a case study here, right? So in western Massachusetts, the age of this individual is 74. Their income is just over a thousand per month from social security. The financial status is the savings are depleted and the person is unaware how they’re going to pay their upcoming August tax bill of approximately a thousand dollars. So let’s talk about when someone reaches out to you with this type of scenario.

Let’s go step by step on what we would do. So I first ask a whole lot of questions because it’s not just about that tax bill. There’s so many other components in there. I start with asking them what other resources have they tapped into. Do they get food stamps, SNAP benefits?

She does, but that’s all she gets. She doesn’t get fuel assistance because she didn’t know she could. She doesn’t get, she doesn’t file taxes every year to get the circuit breaker credit available in Massachusetts, which is money in her pocket. I didn’t even know that. Can you say that again?

Yes, there’s a circuit breaker credit. Now most people, when they’re retired, they don’t file taxes anymore. But if they’re below a certain income level, they can qualify to get a portion of their taxes and utility costs back in the form of a check if they file taxes. And most senior centers can help them do that filing. So senior centers are a good place for resources?

Absolutely. They have a social services person, or around tax time I think they have more than one because they need to. But they can actually file for the last three years. So she could file for 25, 24, and 23 and just say she gets a thousand dollars a year back. That’s three thousand dollars that would be great to have.

I’ll take it. I wouldn’t want to give that away for sure. So the reverse mortgage process, again, this scenario. So you said that obviously there’s more probably going on here. But this is the current need, got to pay taxes in a month, and savings is gone.

So what’s next? So what’s next is she doesn’t have an email address. So I will be bringing her a proposal and going over it with her, make sure she understands it, and help her make sure she plans to make the call to schedule the counseling. I cannot help her with that. I’m not supposed to be on the phone talking.

She has to choose from the list we give her. She can call each one if she wants. There’s usually a half dozen of them. Yeah, for our listeners there’s a list that HUD, it’s a HUD approved counseling list, right? And Cambridge Credit Counseling is on that list.

It’s to avoid collusion and steerage, right? It’s to give the independent customer the choice based on the list that HUD gives us of the approved agents. And they’re all relatively local, but they’re 800 numbers most cases and can be done over the phone if that’s their choice. Or if it’s local enough and they want to do it in person, that is allowed as well. I love this only because there are times in lives when we’re making decisions, right?

And this is an important one for people that are entering or in retirement, to know what you’re getting yourself into. And that shouldn’t be any different for a car loan. It shouldn’t be any different for solar. It shouldn’t be any different for anything that we’re purchasing that has a long-term piece to it. And obviously what you’re paying for it and how much of that’s going towards the cost of what you’re buying.

And of course people have to get paid to do the job that they do. This example, now this customer calls, does the reverse mortgage counseling. They have to get certified, if I’m understanding correctly, they have to get approved that they understand the pros and cons so that they can, they need that document then to get the funding. Is that right? Correct.

I always, I take the stance, even though it may not be required in some of the states I originate in, I always ask them to get that counseling certificate to me before I initiate the application. That way they’ve been through it. If they have more questions, we resolve them. If they still want to go forward, that’s when we start. Okay, so how does it work?

And so a person of this age cannot just go get refinanced? Not with her income. I don’t think she would, there’s debt ratios. And you know, she doesn’t have much, but they count taxes, insurance, and her new car loan that she had to take out because her car broke. Is there a customer that you have spoken to that could do both?

That could afford to qualify? Yes, I’ve seen several. That might mean reverse mortgage still might be the better alternative, depending on the situation. Correct. I mean, they take out a line of credit with a bank, and there’s an interest only payment due every month.

It’s not a regular loan. In most cases, they can do a regular loan, but that makes the payment higher. But after 10 years, or in some cases 20, that matures and they have to do it again. So let’s say they do it as a couple when they’re in their 60s. And then in their 70s, one of them has passed or is in long-term care.

Now the individual alone has to qualify for it. May not be possible. And that’s what you go through with trying to identify that that’s the right process for them? Well, and you know, some of them just don’t want to add another payment. They’re comfortable.

They just want a line of credit to do some repairs or improvements, or they want a line of credit to pay just taxes, you know, to take a little off their plate so they can have a little fun every now and then. Okay, so off the top of your head, what are the top reasons that people would do a reverse mortgage? Some are to pay off an existing mortgage. Maybe they took a mortgage out when they were in their 50s, and it was a 30-year mortgage that’s going to last till they’re in their 80s. The balance is low, relatively low, compared to the value of the home.

The home value has improved since they took that out. Balance has gone down. There may be enough available equity based on their age to pay that off, and maybe give them a little bit of cash or a line of credit, depending on what their needs are. And in today’s market, I mean, the housing market’s been a little difficult since we came out of COVID, obviously. I still cannot believe I still hear people, three, four, five, six people bidding on homes, which means the homes are overvalued already, and then you got people paying over what they’re selling the house for.

So that only helps my business, because that’s driving the values up, which gives the older people who are trying to do a reverse more available equity, because now their value is higher. It does help, even though it doesn’t help the first-time buyer much. Okay, let’s talk about rates, right? So when we were in COVID or before COVID, the rates were around, let’s just say 4%, to keep it simple. Then we came out of COVID, it went up to, let’s just say 7%.

Now it’s been hovering down around six, somewhere around there. Is that fair to say? So with reverse, it’s a little bit different. We don’t have the same rates as the forward mortgage people do. Our rates never got to 8%, or even 7%.

Our peak was right around six and seven-eighths. And actually, so this is what the product that I use most often, because it has the most flexibility, it’s an adjustable rate. Adjustable rates are up beyond what this was. So it’s a, there’s no mortgage payment, so there’s no payment shock, regardless of what they choose. We have a fixed rate program right now.

I think the lowest one is 8.99, which is over what you could get on a conventional mortgage. That’s your point, though, that has the values have gone up, because if you don’t have enough equity, then it becomes difficult to prosper from it. Correct. So, and the interest rate, their age, and the value of the property are the three components that go into calculating just what they can do, and whether it can work for them or not. So if someone does a reverse mortgage, and their life expectancy is X, and they last much longer than that, is it possible to be upside down?

It can be, but they don’t have to worry about it. They don’t have to worry about it until they can no longer live there as their primary residence, or they pass away. In which case, all that has to get paid back is 95% of what it appraises for at that time, or the actual balance, whichever is. So talk me through that. The house is worth $250,000.

Use a round number. $300,000. So $300,000, and they did the reverse mortgage. They last through the life of the equity, and then a year later, they pass on, God forbid. The house is upside down at that point. So what happens?

So, obviously, the heirs take over, whoever is appointed. They make sure they get licensed to sell if that hasn’t been established already. They may have to go through probate, which can take time. The first thing they really need to do is notify the lender, or the servicer in this case. Let them know what’s going on, let them know their plan, and then get to work on the plan.

They generally are given about six months on average to settle everything. If it’s a probate situation where it could take up to a year, they will do extensions to not foreclose while they’re taking care of things. And if there’s an upside down balance, they have to pay that? They have to pay back 95% of that. This is why it’s important for people that are involved in the estate planning to maybe go through the counseling with the individual just to know what to do.

Because you don’t know the timeline, you don’t know how long it’s going to last, you don’t know what’s going to happen in two years, three years, seven years, whatever that looks like. So it’s good for the family that’s involved in the estate planning to be educated. And the first thing they should look for is the mortgage statement. The owner gets a mortgage statement every single month. It includes the contact information for the lender, it shows the balance, it shows everything.

So they at least know what can happen. Then they can find a realtor who can get them an idea of what it could sell for if it was, it may need a little bit of repair, it may need just cleaning out, whatever the situation is. And do the math and notify the lender of it’s looking like this. So for our listeners, if you’re just tuning in, I’m talking with Millie Potter from CMG Home Loans about reverse mortgages. This is basically when someone is 62 or over and wants to take some equity out of their home, there’s a specific mortgage product.

Very important to understand it, especially if you are 62 or over or if you’re part of the estate plan like we just mentioned, to know all the ins and outs. Now tell me, let’s go through some pros and cons. So let’s start with a pro. What’s a pro of a reverse mortgage? Well, it takes a lot of pressure off the budget.

Okay, say that again. That’s important. It takes a lot of pressure off of the budget. Trying to make the money last as long as the month lasts is a challenge. Fixed income most of the time, right?

Most fixed incomes, they get a small increase every year if it’s social security. If they’re on pension, some of them have no increases. It’s fixed, fixed, fixed, fixed. So let’s just talk about that again. 62 is not old, right?

And many of 62-year-olds are driving. So when they’re on fixed income and things are already tight and then gas goes up a dollar in 30 days, that could very well be the difference between making it or breaking it, right? Right. And I have some people saying, you know, I’m going to do a part-time job just because I can’t do, you know, and it’s the ones who retire early that find the most difficulty. You know, if they can postpone their retirement or work part-time for a while, even though they’re collecting social security, then they have some flexibility.

They can pick up an extra few hours without having to rush to find a job because now the budget’s not working. So level setting the budget and making things more comfortable month to month. That’s a pro. That’s a pro. What’s a con?

The heirs aren’t happy with you sometimes. And why would that be? Because they’ll get less money in the end. Yeah. Okay.

So we’re talking greed. Is that what we’re talking? We’re getting into greed a little bit maybe? It’s not so much greed. I mean, there are circumstances where it is.

It’s an issue because maybe there’s a special needs child and a daughter or son living in the house and now what’s gonna happen to them? So it’s housing security and things like that. But we discuss all of that going in, make sure that there’s a plan for that to be taken care of in the end. Is that something that they would learn about in the counseling of it? Or is the counseling more of an overview?

This is a little bit more case by case? This is more of what I discover. Got it. And make sure we go deep into that. The counselor may not know that.

And the loan officer might not do what you’re suggesting. Correct. Okay. So let’s talk about this scenario again just so I understand it. So it’s someone 62 and over and they have someone else living in the home so that if they take a reverse mortgage, the person passes away, then what happens?

Then the heir or the person, whoever the heir is, it could be the person living in the house, it could be somebody else, then has to pay off that mortgage however they do it. They could refinance it, they could sell it. But that person living in the home, if there’s special needs, may have to go into a facility. So it’s defining all of that or go live with somebody else. It’s defining all of that up front.

Making sure the family is on board with the plan. I’m hearing something that I think we should discuss here and this is about having your things in order in this situation. Even before the necessary reverse mortgage. So this is about who the heirs are, what their responsibilities are. I know we’re not gonna get legal here because that’s not what we do.

No. But it’s important. But there are legal documents that can accomplish all of that. And have you seen cases where this has gone bad? Not cases this has gone bad.

I’ve had cases where I’ve advised them to consult with whoever it is that they trust for legal counseling to make sure that, or go to the senior center, they can connect them with somebody to make sure that whatever plan they come up with is gonna work long-term and not be a short-term fix. Okay, so we’re given some resources here. Senior center in your area. What if there isn’t a senior center? Call Social Security for starters.

Sometimes if your income’s low enough, you may qualify for more income, a supplemental income. Other than that, I mean, generally there’s a council on aging in one of the bigger cities around. If you have a small city, there’s no senior center. It could be a bordering town senior center or the council on aging in this area, greater Springfield. I’m sure there’s one in greater Boston, Worcester, all of that.

These are important decisions. Obviously this product was designed because there was a gap here. Can you give a little history on that? When exactly did reverse mortgages become available? So they became available when Ronald Reagan signed it into law.

Oh, that long ago. Long ago. However, it started before that. I believe it was 1968. There was a woman in Maine whose husband used to be the coach of a football team at a high school and he passed away.

And she went to the manager of a bank in town who used to be one of her son’s, her husband’s students. And he used to coach him and explained her dilemma. She wanted to stay in the home, didn’t have enough income. He devised this, the first reverse mortgage. Helped her stay in the home.

That product was that old. It is. It was. When they initially established it, when they came up with the rules, they were different than they are now. They used to allow the homeowner to get more of the equity than they do now.

And people would ultimately lose their home because they would get a big check at the closing. And five, 10 years later, that money’s gone and they’re struggling again. And they have no more equity they can tap in the home. So there were people who did lose their homes. So it got a bad rep in the early years.

2015, major overhaul, many changes, minimizing. More protective. Much more protective of the home and its equity. Just the different steps that we go through to make sure that it’s the right choice at the right time. This is one of the important pieces.

Again, I keep talking about the show for this reason. Financial wellness today, right? So senior center resources, if they make an appointment, they can learn about things they might not even know exist. So fuel assistance, reduction in taxes like we talked about, supplementing income. Again, the circuit breaker credit definitely blew my mind a little bit.

That’s in Massachusetts. It’s not available in every state. Okay, so that’s a Massachusetts benefit. Obviously check with your senior center if that’s something to look into in your area. Tax reduction or deferral, utility costs, utility fee reductions.

Seniors can get discounts if their income is low. And again, it never hurts to ask. Never hurts to ask. Right, you don’t know what you don’t know. The worst they can say is no.

So utility fee reductions, fuel assistance. There are grants in some instances to pay for the heating bills, free energy efficiency audit and improvements. And then of course SNAP benefits for groceries. Okay, so we did a pro and we did a con. Let’s do another pro.

Okay, so I have a couple in Northampton that they want to do this. They have some home repairs that are required. And other than that, they’re doing okay. But they also want a line of credit in case down the road something else breaks. So again, I first advise them get the estimates for what it is you need to do.

Let’s get a couple of estimates so we know what the numbers really are rather than guessing. And then is there anything else? Do you have any bills you want to pay off to make your budget more comfortable? That kind of stuff. Are you planning a trip?

Somebody graduating, somebody getting married? Let’s look at all of the possibilities and go over everything. And once they have the estimates, then we look at the numbers and I, okay, you can do X, Y, and Z and have a line of credit for the future without having to take out another loan that can go toward a new furnace if that breaks. Or maybe your windows are leaking, roof, whatever. The things that normally break after time.

And you’ll have a resource to go to without borrowing money from family or trying to get another loan. So the line of credit doesn’t have to be touched. It’s just there to use if needed. If needed. And is that where some of the family questions come from?

Because again, not suggesting this is possible, but if the person isn’t that good with money, and that’s possible, it happens, and they have an open line of credit at a fixed income status, you really only want to use that in case of emergency, right? That’s what the intent is. Of course, once they close, things can happen. We try to advise them, be very cautious, only use it when you need it, because it will run out if you use it too much, and then you won’t have anything to fall back on if something really does break. The things I worry about, and I spend a lot of time talking, getting to know them, getting to understand their family structure and all of that.

Who’s around that can help you out? Who’s around that you don’t want around? So you try to build a story around the need of the individual, so that you can use your experience to try to give them the understanding of what their best alternatives would be with it. Correct, and they get a statement every month showing them what the line of credit is at, and that line of credit will grow over time if they don’t touch it, because we add value to the property every year, and generally that’s greater than what the interest charges are on the amount they took. So if we’re adding 4% to the property, the house is worth 300, next year we say it’s worth 312.

Maybe they only added 4,000 in balance, so now there’s an $8,000 growth factor there. So this sounds to me like people that are now in retirement on fixed income, the last thing in the world that we would want them doing is using credit cards, obviously because most of them are higher interest, the average rate’s like 24.95%. So the alternative to that, instead of borrowing off a credit card and paying that higher interest, is leveraging the asset in a safe way to cover and make things easier to live. Correct. Is that the grand scheme of why someone would wanna do it?

You know, the line of credit, they can make payments, they don’t have to make payments, so they can make- But that will accrue interest? That will minimize the growth of that balance if they’re making payments. But if they didn’t make payments, that’s where it starts to eat into the equity of the asset and eventually- It does. But some people can afford to make payments, some can’t. Some are doing this because they don’t want another mortgage payment and they’ve gotta fix the water heater and the furnace, whatever their cost.

Let’s say it’s 25,000, that’s all they need, but they don’t want that payment. Yeah, I have to believe that, again, I’m so thankful you’re educating me on some of this today. I didn’t know it was around for this long. But in today’s economy, Social Security is just, it’s not, it doesn’t really barely cover the cost of living. And everybody’s different.

I mean, you know, what you made in your highest, I believe it’s 10 quarters, no, highest 40 quarters, okay, is what they based what you’re gonna get from Social Security on. So some people may have a few really good years, maybe five good years, and then some so-so years. They’re gonna get more than the guy who had the steady income all along and got a little raise here and there. It’s great that they worked the same job for so long, but there were no big bumps in income where other people may have moved around a little or did commission-type income, which can really boost your income. Not even income, yeah.

Yes. So getting back to it, just for our listeners, reverse mortgages are a product for people that are 62 and over, that have equity in their home. And I feel like just having this discussion with you, the need now is probably more than it was during COVID times, right, because everything was cheaper. There was some stimulus involved. You know, people could get by.

But since the release of that, that was what, four years ago, 2022? Everything has gone up. Energy has gone up. Groceries have gone up. Fuel has gone up.

Insurance has gone up. Auto insurance industry has been obviously hit by that insurance. And homeowner’s insurance. And homeowner’s insurance. So again, this is just the formula where there are some things that are just not in our control and you’ve gotta know the things that you can do that are safe, or at least learn about them from somebody that’s really going to give you all the information you need.

And I love that in this industry, that they put the counseling separate from the transaction because, again, at that age, it’s difficult to recover from a bad decision. And we’ve all made them. Maybe we didn’t know all the facts, but this is just eye-opening, this conversation. Whether you’re 62 and over and doing this, or you’re 24 and looking to buy a home, it’s all about getting educated. Because once you own the home, you’re in it and you’re responsible for all of it, right?

And at 62, your choices become limited. But even at 24, it’s important to know, you know, what does it take to be a homeowner? What’s a homeowner’s insurance? What does it cover? How old is the roof from the house I’m buying, and am I going to need to replace it?

How much does that cost? So these are all things that are important for individuals to just know that when you’re getting into these transactions, you’re buying a car, you’re buying a home, it’s knowing all of the information that you have and the things that you have available to you. And in your experience in the business, 37 years is a great amount of experience. What’s the most wonderful thing that you’ve seen in helping people with it over time? Well, I find what I’m doing now is much more rewarding when you know that you’re making people’s lives better than when I was doing forward mortgages and you’re watching first time buyers stretching their budgets to qualify for that best home that they could buy.

Most of those were very successful, but occasionally you get that bad story, well, I, you know, lost my job and I had to sell that house or I got foreclosed on because I didn’t act fast enough. That’s happening a lot right now too. But I find, so the people that I seem to be, that seem to be in the most need right now are the ones in their early to mid seventies. Maybe they started collecting social security when they were 65 and at age 68 or 69, they had to go get a part-time job because now their budgets weren’t working anymore. And now jobs are getting eliminated in some of those places and now what am I gonna do?

Again, we don’t know the physicality of the individuals. It’s all different. Right, health takes over. They can’t work anymore because they had a health scare of some sort that, you know, now they can’t go out every day. Whatever the situation is, you know, it can be driven by medical, it can be driven by just the economy not working with what they’re doing.

And does it make sense to sell that more expensive house and buy something that’s more reasonable? Maybe they need something one level, a reverse can be used for purchase as well as for refinancing a house. So you can use the equity in a home to buy another home with the reverse mortgage? So if you’re selling your house and you’re netting X amount of dollars and you wanna buy in one of those 55 and over communities where the prices range 450 to 550 and you’re selling for enough, you could pay cash or maybe you’d have to have a small mortgage. Instead, use a reverse, keep some cash in the bank, let us fund a portion of that.

Generally, it’ll be about 40% if they’re in their 70s. And, you know, now you have some cash in the bank, you’re where you wanna be, one level, newer home and go on from there. Are there any special pieces of the realtor side of that? Or is the realtor part normal? And it’s the vehicle you use to- It’s pretty normal that we do a pre-approval letter like we do on any other.

The thing we have to watch for as they’re, you know, looking at homes is some towns have higher taxes and the tax figure goes into the calculations. So we gotta be sure that all the numbers work, not just the purchase price. Is it normal for a reverse mortgage broker to do budgeting with them to do a budget to see where they’re at? Or they usually just tell you what the need is and then you try to work through some advice and some recommendations and- Right, so if a realtor sends a client to me telling me where they want to buy, I do the math with the buyer, potential buyer, see how the numbers look, see if they have the ability, if, you know, if they’re selling for, if their house is on the market for X, I always take some off of that because you never know if it’s gonna be one of those bidding wars or it’s gonna sit there for six months. Yeah, interesting statistic for people listening.

In the budgeting that you do when you go through a bankruptcy, you go through some counseling. The recommended percentage of your income that should go to paying for your shelter is about 28%. I know that some of the people in the industry try to stretch that amount, but then all that means is if you’re gonna do 35%, that just means that there’s 65% left for everything else. Right, so when you’re planning, you have to do that math to try to figure out how much am I gonna spend in all of my categories to make sure that everything makes sense. And that, I think, is what I heard from you talking about people stretching themselves to get in, they’re falling in love with the home before owning it.

And then once you’re in it, you don’t want that to become a lost love because you’re burdened by the house that you bought and didn’t really understand what that strain was gonna put on you if it wasn’t financially fitting. But some are comfortable with having a used car. Some want the new house and the new car. Sure, seen that, seen it, yep, I get it. So it’s looking, when I was doing regular mortgages, I had those conversations, you’re not just buying a house.

You’ve got other things that you’re gonna have to buy. And things will happen. And things will happen. So let’s look at the whole picture. All right, before we wrap up, tell us something about yourself, a hobby, habit, something that you’ve done over time, something that you love.

I don’t know, I golf not as much as I used to now. Used to bowl, that’s how I met you a long time ago. I haven’t done that in several years. But I guess the thing, I love to challenge myself to find new ways to do things. You’ve always been a competitor.

And whatever you do, you’ve always been a competitor. I try to innovate. Is there a better way to explain this? Is there a better way to do this? Is there a quicker way?

Is there an option I’m not thinking about? I ask other people questions. It’s just what I, I love to learn. And I love to provide solutions. When somebody says, I don’t know how to do this.

Well, let’s break it down. Figure out why it’s not working. And what can we do to fix it? We’ve known each other almost 30 years now. And you’ve been a tremendous human being in my life.

You’ve always been trying to help others. We’ve networked a lot. You introduced me to it 15 years ago, I guess. And you’ve always been that person that tries to go the extra mile. And that’s why I’m grateful to have you on the show on such a very important topic.

Because in today’s economy, people are struggling. And these are the type of decisions that people are needing to make and knowing that they have trusted places to turn. So before we get out of here, how can people find you? So my cell phone is [phone number removed]. Email is [email removed].

Millie, thank you so much. Thank you. It’s a pleasure having you on the show. And that’s going to do it for us for Financial Wellness Today. This is Gordon Oliver, your host.

Please feel free to send questions to the show so that we can bring up topics that you would want to hear about. We’re going to always bring guests that are going to give information, that are going to give experience to help get people information that they need in this tremendously difficult economy that we’re in. But good economy or bad economy, all of the things that we’re going to talk about on this show are so that you can make good decisions, know where to turn to make those decisions as you work on your financial wellness path.